1 Wednesday, 27 September 2017 2 (9.30 am) 3 MR AINSLIE MCLAUGHLIN (continued) 4 Examination by MR LAKE (continued) 5 CHAIR OF THE INQUIRY: Good morning. You're still under 6 oath, Mr McLaughlin. 7 MR LAKE: Good morning, Mr McLaughlin. I just want to try 8 and draw together some of the issues we were discussing 9 yesterday concerning the withdrawal of 10 Transport Scotland from the project in 2007. 11 Perhaps just to be clear as to where we were, 12 I think my understanding is you accepted that prior to 13 July 2007, there had been no written indication that 14 Transport Scotland were considering withdrawing simply 15 because the project was going to reach the delivery 16 phase as opposed to the planning phase? 17 A. That is correct, to my knowledge, yes. 18 Q. Why is it that you consider that the resource provided 19 by Transport Scotland would be less valuable in the 20 planning phase -- in the construction phase, rather than 21 the planning phase? 22 A. I think I have given my opinion. My opinion was that 23 the project was moving into the construction and 24 procurement phase. The funding was in place. And there 25 was already a project governance structure in place 1 1 through CEC and tie to deliver that. 2 Q. Apart from the fact there was funding and there was 3 a governance structure, in terms of the expertise and 4 experience that Transport Scotland could bring, was that 5 about to lose its utility when they started 6 construction? 7 A. I don't believe so. I mean, I think prior to 2007 we 8 had one representative on the Board from 9 Transport Scotland. I don't think it's credible that 10 a continuing representation on the Board from 11 Transport Scotland would have substantively improved the 12 delivery of the project in terms of the capability and 13 capacity that was already in existence with tie. 14 Q. I think you have accepted that the view of the Auditor 15 General in the Audit Scotland Report in 2011 was that 16 the Scottish Ministers should reconsider their position 17 to withdraw, and in fact they did so? 18 A. Indeed, ultimately, the Scottish Ministers did 19 reconsider, but the Auditor General, to my knowledge, 20 didn't say that the project had got into difficulty 21 because of Transport Scotland not being on the Board. 22 Q. But he said it was preferable that they be there? 23 A. My recollection is the Auditor General said it may be 24 useful that Transport Scotland expertise might become 25 more directly involved in the project. 2 1 Q. In terms of provision of information to 2 Transport Scotland, rather than looking at what's done 3 by Transport Scotland, having someone on the Tram 4 Project Board provides a conduit for passage of 5 information to Transport Scotland? 6 A. Indeed, but there was a mechanism put in place once the 7 grant was agreed, the Grant Agreement was concluded with 8 City of Edinburgh Council for reporting progress through 9 the Council and to Transport Scotland. 10 Q. Was that requirement for reporting already there before 11 Transport Scotland withdrew in the earlier grant 12 arrangements? 13 A. I couldn't answer that. My colleague, Mr Reeve, is 14 probably better placed to do that. 15 Q. Looking prior to July 2007, I think it was the case -- 16 it is the case that there was no written document 17 raising concern then as to the confusion of roles 18 between Transport Scotland on the one hand and tie and 19 the Council on the other? 20 A. I'm not aware of any. There may have been, but I'm not 21 aware of it. 22 Q. Are you aware of there having been any confusion as to 23 the roles being performed by these two bodies or these 24 various bodies, sorry? 25 A. Prior to July -- 3 1 Q. Prior to July 2007? 2 A. I'm not aware of any concerns that were raised. 3 Q. Prior to 2007, had there been any concerns with 4 accountability for the project? 5 A. I don't -- again, looking at the bigger picture, I think 6 it was always clear that this was a City of Edinburgh 7 Council project. I don't think there was any confusion 8 as to whether this was a local project and this was City 9 of Edinburgh Council's project; and that the delivery 10 arm for taking this forward was tie and was always going 11 to be tie. 12 Q. That was quite clear before 2007? 13 A. To my mind, it was, yes. 14 Q. Again, prior to July 2007, there doesn't seem to be any 15 correspondence or meetings saying that 16 Transport Scotland's involvement was unnecessary because 17 of the resources and experience that existed within tie. 18 A. I couldn't comment on that. I'm not aware of any. 19 Q. The level of resources and experience within tie was 20 presumably well known to Transport Scotland prior to 21 July 2007? 22 A. As far as I'm aware, tie was a large organisation, yes. 23 Q. Transport Scotland were aware of the skills and 24 resources within tie? 25 A. That would be my understanding, yes. 4 1 Q. You also refer to the fact that, again, looking at the 2 period up to July 2007, the Audit Scotland Report from 3 that year appeared to place some reliance on the role of 4 Transport Scotland within the Government structures. 5 A. My interpretation was that the -- they noted 6 Transport Scotland's involvement in the project in terms 7 of its funding role. 8 Q. You didn't think they paid any attention to its 9 governance role? 10 A. Other than that at that point, there was 11 a Transport Scotland representative on the Board. 12 Q. That was something that was referred to in 13 the Audit Scotland Report? 14 A. It was, yes. 15 Q. That was something that was narrated by 16 the Audit Scotland Report in reaching the conclusion 17 that there were sound governance structures in place? 18 A. Indeed. 19 MR LAKE: Thank you, Mr McLaughlin. I have no further 20 questions. 21 CHAIR OF THE INQUIRY: I don't think anyone has given any 22 indication of any questions. So thank you very much, 23 Mr McLaughlin. 24 A. Thank you. 25 CHAIR OF THE INQUIRY: You're free to go. You're still 5 1 under a citation. It may be that you will be recalled. 2 Hopefully that will not be necessary. 3 A. Okay. Thank you, my Lord. 4 (The witness withdrew) 6 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 MR AINSLIE MCLAUGHLIN (continued) ....................1 4 5 Examination by MR LAKE (continued) ............1 6 7 Discussion re procedural matters .....................6 8 9 MR WILLIAM REEVE (sworn) ............................11 10 11 Examination by MR LAKE .......................11 12 13 MR JOHN RAMSAY (affirmed) ..........................173 14 15 Examination by MR LAKE ......................173 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 231